Sub 1 lb. XUL : Possible or BS?

[Gerald Hutchinson]

Possibilities are expanding…and I have to say that I like it.

From what I see, XUL is only partly about gear, but mostly about wisdom, judgment and attitude. Whether the adventure racer, the Special Forces dude, or the native wanderers, all possess minimal gear, but much more know-how and the will-power to make it work.

In other words, the gear may be "sufficient" but the mind-spirit aspect is "necessary." Backwards from the way materialists/consumerists think.

This insight brings a new perspective.

[george carr]

Actually, Keith had hiked the JMT 3 times prior, and I wouldn't go with the term stunt. He likes to test his limits. I'm sure traditional backpackers would consider sub 5 or 3 a stunt also. It's interesting that when someone steps way over what's considered the edge that they immediately draw fire. Most people on this site are considered reckless or ill equipped by the larger portion of the hiking commmunity, not b/c it's true, but b/c that's what a lack of knowledge or experience does to otherwise reasonable folks.

[Jeremy Cleaveland]

0.3 oz firesteel mini
0.3 oz razor blade (mainly as a striker)
0.02 oz 2 tinder quicks (backup to natural tinder)
0.3 oz photon freedom microlight
3.25 oz Adventure Medical Kits Heatsheets Emergency Bivvy
cut a head hole in the bottom for rain gear
fill with leaves for insulation
put gear inside and carry over shoulder
1.3 oz Platypus 2+ liter bottle
0.3 oz mini dropper bottle with betadine for water
treatment/wound cleansing
0.3 duct tape
4 oz running shorts
4 oz shirt
0 oz barefoot!

14.07 oz full skin out base weight – 1 pound food per day

for a survival expert or a skilled native this would be cushy. Much cheaper than all that cuben too….
If you want, come up with some 1.93 oz mocassins for sub 1 full skin out base weight.
Any takers??
Something like this might be "fun" to try, in a place where a quick bail out is an option. The night would be cold, even with a fire ring around you. I'd prefer to bring a few extra pounds and actually sleep.

[Art Sandt]

"It's interesting that when someone steps way over what's considered the edge that they immediately draw fire"

He drew fire because he posted his topic in a Gear Forum but refused to share his gear list, and didn't go into the philosophy of his question either. People were left with a thinly veiled boast, followed by many unanswered questions and nonsense both from other people and from him. Also, treating all other forum members as "subequals" by saying that they were not entitled to the information because they lacked the proper knowledge to use a sub-1 lb gear list safely; and if they were knowledgeable enough to use a sub-1 pound gear list, then they'd already know what consists in such a list. That's a most irritating and demeaning problem in circular logic. Not really something you get patted on the back for saying. So I really don't think the guy drew fire because he went outside the norm. He (and I really don't like saying this), but he brought it on himself.

[Dave T]

.

[Franco Darioli]

That particular thread started (at WB) with a question like : is a sub 1 pound base weight considered backpacking ?
Keeping in mind that it mentioned hiking the JMT without re-supplies, ( in other words not a mild season overnighter but a 200+ mile hike ,with elevation from 4,000 to 14,000') my reply to that was " no it's surviving , record breaking or fulfilling a personal quest, but not backpacking" I am paraphrasing both question and answer because it was posted a few months ago and shortly after that I stopped frequenting that site. As stated above, a question posted in the gear forum should relate to gear not philosophical views. In other words, in this case for example, how can you carry 8 to 14 days of food inside a pack that is a fraction of 1 lb in weight ? Now, if you choose to walk all night and only sleep in the sun to keep warm and eat mostly vitamin pills, (or whatever…) again that is not backpacking. What happens if it starts snowing ?
This has nothing to do with the difference between doing the JMT with a base weight of 20 pounds or 5 pounds. At some point dropping even further in weight becomes an exercise that is outside the realm of backpacking, just like "running" the same trail in less than 5 days has also nothing to do (IMHO) with backpacking, it's racing . However I copped a lot of abuse for my comments and preferred to leave a site that turns simple gear questions into meaning of life replies.
( and yes, I realize that a quick "no,(it's not backpacking) but tell us how you do it? " would have been more appropriate, but by then the debate was well under way and with no gear list in sight)
Franco

[John S.]

The guy, Wolf-23000, has been boasting about his light weight for years on that site. First it was his sub 4 hiking and now he started his post about just over a pound JMT hike. He always brings up his great talent, but refuses to share his gearlist.

It's just one more gearlist thrown into the pi$$ing contest, just like what is done on this site occasionally. Where there is testosterone, there will be boasting about physical (or other) prowess. He is very likely, to me, not even telling the truth about the gearlist weight and hence, part of the reluctance to share it.

In the near future you will see some proclaim that base pack weight means nothing. There will be a new standard for you to live up to in order to be ultralight.

[Arapiles .]

"No, the aboriginals were very nomadic, and really didnt carry much at all-no big water containers, except sometimes using a shallow wooden dish with grass in it (could probably hold a pint). They would walk long distances between known water points, navigating with an inate sense and using knowledge based on dreamtime stories and just knowing (even if they hadnt been there before themselves). Its very impressive, and hard to understand how they did it, but they did.

They would camp at times in the one place for a while too, but didnt really have much in the way of insulation anyway…depends on the tribal group and region, but they are pretty good at withstanding hot and cold temperatures with basically no clothing."

Although the post is undoubtedly well-intentioned it's simply not correct. Aboriginal Australians were not "nomadic" in the sense that they just randomly wandered around – they had tribal territories, they stayed in them but did move to seasonal food sources. I'm from the Wimmera and there are still stone eel-traps and stone huts in good condition in the area so the idea that they were basically naked and had no technology is mistaken – for winter they used permanent camps with part-height stone walls that were re-thatched each year. As for clothing, the Wimmera can be cold this time of year – below freezing overnight – so they wore possum-skin cloaks which, incidentally, were beautifully made – there are examples in the State Museum of Victoria. They also had extremely well-developed trade routes that basically crossed the continent. In areas where there was poor water they actually constructed wells – these were often only small and well-hidden but they knew where they were. They could and did carry water in hollowed out emu eggs.

As for the inate sense of direction, sadly it doesn't exist – they just knew their territory through experience and teaching. Someone did an experiment on this in Central Australia and found that the people there got as lost as you and me when they weren't in their home territory – no mysterious abilities in evidence.

Of all the guerilla wars the English fought, the one against Aboriginal Australians was the one where they took the heaviest casualties … I suggest reading Henry Reynolds' "The Other Side of the Frontier" which is a history of the aboriginal resistance to English colonisation or his other book, "This Whispering in our Hearts" which partly explains the origins of a lot of the myths about Aboriginals, including the myth that they were landless and propertyless and did not till the land.

Arapiles

[Lynn Tramper]

It's always interesting to read what others consider "essential". I wouldn't bother with the fire-starting stuff, the medical kit, the water treatment or the bivy. I would just carry food that didn't need cooking, drink the water as I found it, and make myself a fully sealed cuben down sleeping bag that would weigh no more than 14oz and keep me warm and dry below freezing. A cuben pack to carry the bag and food, and some line to hang the food from bears and I would be ready to hit the trail with just the clothes on my back.

As to whether it's backpacking or not, I would say it isn't since there is no approved bear canister involved. Maybe on another trail that didn't require a bear canister it would be backpacking, but not on the JMT (legally speaking). I say it's backpakcing because (in my short gear list anyway) there is shelter and food for 12 days.

[Art Sandt]

A waterproof cuben fiber sleeping bag makes a lot of sense as a way to combine sleeping insulation with shelter, but wouldn't you sweat too much on fair weather nights? I guess it would mean not wearing a bunch of clothes to bed, or could you get by with a bunch of wool clothes (which would be worn during the day and not "counted" as part of the base pack weight)?

[Bill Fornshell]

There isn't much I haven't made out of Cuben Fiber. I have post most of it in the MYOG forum here. Some of my Cuben stuff isn't posted anywhere.

Cuben Sleeping Bag

[Art Sandt]

Not that is cool! So do you wear vapor barrier clothing inside of it or does clothing type not matter, or what?

[Lynn Tramper]

Naaah. On fair-weather nights you just use it like a quilt. Stick your feet out or just sleep on the bag instead of under it. Mosquitos would be my biggest worry with this system!

In hind sight, I think I would make the thing quilt/poncho style (ala No Sniveller's) so I could also wear it.

[Franco Darioli]

Allison,
Just as a comparison, the Milford track is 53K long max altitude 1154m, total ascent/descent 2.1km
The JMT is 340K long , starts at over 1000m, has six passes over 3300m including one at just over 4000m (Mt Cook is 3750m high) , tot ascent/descent 25km.
Do you still feel confident that you could do it with a sub 1lb base weight ?
Franco

[mark henley]

So what if we followed Bill Forshell's thought process with all the projects he's done in Cuben …. hummmm ….

Cuben Poncho tarp – 3.6
Cuben fiber shelled one layer 2.5 oz xp basis weight bag/quilt/tunic with head hole – 6.5 oz
Polycrow groudcloth – 1.7 oz
Cuben fiber Forshell type MOYG pack – 2
Torso sized 1/8 inch thick GG pad – .75
can pot, spoon, and Aluminum foil for three pebble esbit stove – .6 oz
Windshirt – use Poncho
1 L platy – .7
Water Treatment (use as disinfectant) – 1oz
Photon light – .3
spectra line to hang pack as bear bag – .3 oz
Mini Bic – .4
Chap stick – .1
couple of bandaids – .05

Total of 18 oz ….

Innovation makes it possible, at least in my mind.

[David Wills]

thats a good list mark.

You could drop an ounce or two by using 2.0 oz combat or 1.8 oz ploft in the quilt, or just drop the insulation all together. I cant imagine it would be too hard to pile a bunch of leaves and duff on top of a cuben VB bag and under the poncho for insulation and sleep by a nice fire with spare wood next to you to throw on it. you could drop the torsolight as well if you slept on a nice bed of natural insulation. If someone could get used to sleeping like that, it could be pretty sustainable. Not going to be me though.

[Michael Wands]

It seems to me that you could make a pack out of a pullover windshirt. I have a dragonfly that cinches at the waist to close the bottom. Using the sleeves as shoulder straps I think it could be done.

Have everything inside enclosed in a turkey roasting bag.

[Bill Fornshell]

Hi All,

I am glad to see some thought on the subject of XUL.

It might be better to start a new thread for the some serious dialogue on how to get to a "hike-able" Sub 1 pound or Sub 2 pound gear list.

For hiking in mild weather Sub 2 pound is here, Sub 1 pound, well almost anything is possible.

I slept 2 nights on the ground when hiking the Georgia, Duncan Ridge Trail, in Oct 2006 with over-night temperatures about 45 degrees. I had a bed of about 3 inches of leaves and other stuff to lay on but the ground did get a bit cold. Not enough to keep me from sleeping, however.

A lot of this is about your personal tolerance. We do get spoiled very easy and very fast but we should be able to train ourselves away from the "Girly Man" mindset.

[Richard D.]

You could probably get away with this without using cuben, with the "pile pine needles on yourself" approach :)

pack: 2-4 oz (from GG or MLD, or MYOG)
two 5×8 space blankets – one with tieouts as XUL tarp, other as sleeping cover: 8 oz total, no ground sheet or sleeping pad necessary (for survival)
water containers (plastic bottles): 1 oz
plastic dishes for eating: 1 oz
photon light + odds and ends: 2-4 oz

There we're talking 14-18 oz. and obviously skipping everything he's wearing, which could include a wind jacket and wind pants. If the man needs another insulating or wind layer, or it begins raining, let him wrap himself in a space blanket or two:)

Admittedly, this might fall into the category of "survival backpacking," which, as I understand, is not what this thread is about.

[Gerald Hutchinson]

Boyhowdy! on learning to do without creature comforts. When I went to Outward Bound 20 years ago we slept just on plastic ground sheets (summer only). Took some getting used to, but once adjusted to, no prob!

Bill, I've read a few dozen posts by you, and you seem to be well-respected for your innovation and real-life putting your walk where your talk is…

Would it be improper to ask that you start that thread? for a serious discussion about not just the gear, but the financial, physical, and psychological sacrifices required to go Sub-5, -3, -2 and -1?

I'm thinking you could lay out a few criteria and conditions (I am doing well to go sub-7 right now, so I'm not an expert—just a learner). Not just *can it be done*, but what are the sacrifices, and what are the key "orthodoxies" that must be challenged? For instance, WRT quality of sleep, quality of nourishment, "pack comfort," gear redundancies, advantages of MYOG vs. purchase of production gear, ROI on light-weight vs. overall comfort/quality of experience (realize subjective, but what might be some experiential mileposts common to each step-change?), etc.

(I know this is a lot, but I'm thinking many voices will chime in and flesh out the criteria and the content.)

[Lynn Tramper]

Hi Franco

IF I knew the track as well as the guy we are talking about, and if I had the survival skills he has obviously developed with lots of training and experience, and if I were a fit male with the kind of drive that only testosterone seems to impart, then all things are possible with 450 grams of gear on my back. The Milford is a poor comparison as it's littered with huts, and has an absoultely unpredictable and changeable climate with some of the highest recorded rainfalls in the world. However if we were to ignore all that and pretend there are no huts, we would have to compare the JMT in summer to walking the Milford back and forth 6 times for the same distance or 12 times for the same ascent/descent. Either way my biggest concern with my 400g cuben bag would be the lack of sandfy protection, plus the weight of carrying 12 days worth of food in what would no doubt be a poorly supported pack. I think I would be hungry with sore shoulders most of the trip more than anything. At least the water would be safe to drink!

For the record, I grew up in Midpines, just outside of Yosemite, and mis-spent my youth playing in the Sierras. You really truly can't compare the climate or terrain when you live in a place that has glaciers almost to sea level and terrain that would be impassable without a well-formed and highly maintained track. But it's the unpredicatbility of the weather that kills most backpackers here, whether due to exposure or crossing flooded rivers. I sure do miss those California 10 day forecasts that were almost 100% accurate.

[mark henley]

Bill,

I took the liberty of starting a new Yahoo group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SULhiking/

If that's where the consensus would want to store this info as a repository. If so … I'll need volunteers to be mods on the group.

Otherwise, we can certainly discuss this as a thread on this site … .it really doesn't matter to me. My only thought is that it's hard to find info on this site using any type of search function and it would be a shame to let this info pass by the wayside as so many of our project posts have.

[mark henley]

That's a good thought …..

A lot would depend on the design.

Looking back over Bill's posts and remembering many of the quilts that I've made, making a top bag would be a lot more efficient at keeping you warm for less weight, however, it may be a challenge to use that same bag as a tunic as in the Forshell tunic/quilt design.

The Cuben bag that Bill made, if you look back over the posts, was way too hot to sleep in, so it may make more sense to use Cuben VB clothes and a breathable bag ….. Hummmmm so many options!

[Art Sandt]

"I cant imagine it would be too hard to pile a bunch of leaves and duff on top of a cuben VB bag and under the poncho for insulation and sleep by a nice fire with spare wood next to you to throw on it."

Just curious, has anyone here ever actually slept in a pile of forest duff and leaves in cold temperatures?

[Lynn Tramper]

"The Cuben bag that Bill made, if you look back over the posts, was way too hot to sleep in, so it may make more sense to use Cuben VB clothes and a breathable bag "

I can't see how "too hot" would be a problem here. If you're hot, just sleep on top of the quilt instead of under it. The problem with Bill's bag was that it had no zipper to allow venting of heat, unlike a quilt. I would think the biggest challenge to going sub-1lb (on the JMT in summer) would be keeping warm at night. Plus the filling of a breathable bag would still be prone to getting soaked when sleeping in the rain without any shelter.

As to the question of top bag versus tunic quilt, you can basically have both in a single piece of gear. I have done this with an ordinary down quilt where I used a drawstring and velcro strip on the bottom edges to form a footbox if desired. It works really well.
But basically, there are plenty of options to going XUL if you have the desire, fitness and the knowledge to make it happen. I have none of those attributes! However, if cuben weren't so out of my price range I would make one of these quilts just out of curiosity.

[Author]

Posts