Andy Skurka in Scotland

[Martin Rye]

Nice to see this subject back on the discussion table. I am sure that tarps work for some people and to see Eddy state his view is good. I respect he has experience in abundance and I like his articles in the TGO on all things to do with ultralight backpacking.

On tarps I have to agree with Chris that comfort and enjoying your time in camp are part of the experience. The last time I slithered under a tarp was as an army cadet when we use to tie two ponchos together, pitch them low and throw bracken over to keep the rain out. Fun at 14 but not my idea of a good time now.

As I mentioned before you may have located a good pitch only to find that like my friend did it could end up flooding and in his case the bath tub saved him from lots of wet kit. A tarp will not give you in my opinion the same level of protection or choice where you can pitch in some of the high and exposed locations that Scotland, Wales or say the Pennine’s have as a tent. UK backpacking is best when you get high and try to stay high. The real sense of wilderness in Britain is found up on the summits in my view.

Eddy you say that “Scotland is unlikely to present Andrew Skurka with a challenge that he hasn't already encountered and adequately dealt with somewhere else in the world” True with out a doubt. I remember that the original point that Simon was trying to get at was would his high profile challenge the thinking on ultralight backpacking in the UK. This is still to be answered in some ways. On his site he talks of pitching by trees etc for shelter for a tarp. In Scotland that can mean low, boggy, and even in May midge territory (joy I think not). Would he have enjoyed that as much as an established tree line in the US?

In the UK we have a certain resistance to change in our ways of what is and not good equipment to use in the hills. An example is Chris Townsend has long advocated trail shoes are fine to wear in the hills. Yet he has been criticised for this. He wrote not long back about using crampons with flexible footwear. I have done this and agree with him, yet he stirred up a real argument as many people thought it was unsafe and wrong to suggest such a thing.

There is always going to be a difference of opinion on what is good and not good kit to use in the UK conditions. When advice is given it should be proven and point out the draw backs and disadvantages as well as the good.

[Mr E J Meechan]

Chris,

I suspect that it's the difference in the size of the tarps we prefer that makes it easier for me to find a site for a tarp than a tent, and for you to find it easier to find a site for a tent. None of my tarps has a footprint that's much bigger than a bivvy bag. Speaking of which, I always pair my tarp with a bivvy whenever I'm camping in Scotland, and even on the soggiest of ground the most moisture I've ever had to contend with has been a smidgeon of condensation (the top of my bivvy is water resistant and highly breathable rather than fully waterproof).

Like you, I don't much care for the thought of wriggling to get under a low tarp, but I'm prepared to do it on the few occasions on which it proves necessary. If I'm honest, I have to admit that there has been the occasional very long night during which I've thought longingly about the Akto stashed in a kit box at home, but these occasions have been few and far between.

I realise that I like to rough it to a degree that most backpackers would not find acceptable, but I believe that this approach furnishes me with more camping anecdotes than the average backpacker.

For example, there was the time that I was forced to pitch my tarp in a vicious storm on the South Mullardoch Mountains…

Post edited by the Backpacking Anecdote Police.

[Chris Townsend]

Last year when I was testing tarps for TGO I used some pretty small ones in the Highlands! Pitching the tarps is never a problem – one of their big plus points is how adaptable they are. It's wet ground I've found a problem. There are places where I've had large pools of water under a tent that would have spilled over onto a flat groundsheet.

I rarely use a bivvy bag with a tarp – I generally find bivvy bags uncomfortable compared with a sleeping bag on its own – but I have done so when using small tarps. This goes back years to when the long defunct company Mountain Range made a small hooped tarp to go over the head of a bivvy bag (this was before trekking poles became popular). I also have a Sympatex tarp from the 1980s somewhere that also came with a hooped tarp to cover the head. I tested both of these but always went back to a tent.

As I said, I like tarps. I've used them many times in dry climates from the Alps to the Cascades, including on multi-week walks, but I don't find them comfortable enough for me in the Highlands for more than a night or two at a time. If I'm out for a fortnight I like the comfort and performance of a tent, especially the Akto.

I have plenty of tent camping anecdotes!

[Mike Hinsley]

Chris,

what do you do about down under a tarp? No matter what I do there always seems to be more moisture on a sleeping bag under a tarp than under a tent?

For tarps and bivys in the UK I've found that after a couple of nights the down really needs a healthy airing.

Have you done any better?

[Chris Townsend]

Mike, I use a groundsheet inside the tarp – usually a silnylon one – and an insulating mat. I can't say I've ever noticed my sleeping bag becoming damper inside a tarp than a tent. In my experience how damp the sleeping bag gets depends on the overall humidity rather than the type of shelter.

With bivvy bags it's different and I've also found that sleeping bags need airing after a couple of nights in a bivvy bag. If I used a bivvy bag regularly I'd use a synthetic fill bag.

[Mike Hinsley]

Chris,

thanks. I do use a bathtub groundsheet.

Humidity is the core issue but dew is also an issue. Maybe I should camp during summer more!

[Chris Townsend]

Mike, I find the problems with condensation worst in the summer! The only time I've used a bivvy bag inside a double-skin tent was on a long walk in August when it rained heavily for a week and the tent became soaked and condensation was forming inside the inner and dripping on me.

Overall I get less condensation in a tarp than in a double-skin tent due to the better ventilation.

[Martin Rye]

Eddy,

At last a more honest assessment of the advantages and disadvantages of tarps in their use in Scotland. Your admission that “I realise that I like to rough it to a degree that most backpackers would not find acceptable” sums up your position which may not suit others in their equipment choice.

If your articles on the advantages of ultralight backpacking are to have the effect of encouraging others to try what you’re promoting it has to have honesty in its conviction. Bold claims of how you have endured hell and high water in Scotland while slithering under a tarp will not convince anyone. When you admit that you have thought of the tent back home in my opinion gives me a more honest assessment of what you are talking about. And shows you are considering the negatives as well as the positives.

I think Chris has hit the nail on the head when he talks of appropriate locations and use of a tarp compared to his point of their extended use in Scotland where he said “I don't find them comfortable enough for me in the Highlands for more than a night or two at a time” Equipment selection for the duration of any trip must consider the weather conditions expected to be encountered and will it offer protection from the element, provide a degree of comfort and allow safe sheltered cooking in wet conditions. Tents in my view in Scotland on extended trips offer the best solution to these requirements. Tarps do not have what is needed to meet these requirements in my view.

[Mike Hinsley]

Chris, Mark et al.

I think that you've probably answered the question for me. This year I've been looking at whether or not to persist with 'tarps' or to go back to a a twin-skin tent since weights are now comparable if not volumes.

For now I think I'm going to persist with what could be classed as a single-skin tent or tarp (depending on where you live) with designed-in high airflow.

Of course, I might change my mind tomorrow. My old 1/2 man saunders tent can always go on a weight-loss plan.

In the UK bivy bags are only good for a few days unless you use a synthetic bag and/or can allow it to fully dry periodically.

Flat tarps are limited. I've seen out a few storms under them but it's hardly fun.

A fully-enclosed space seems most friendly for rough weather and I absolutely struggle to find any scientific reason why an inner tent – which is water-vapour transparent has any impact on the contents within an enclosed space.

This doesn't cater for midges and I still find benefit in having at least the lower half of my sleeping bag in a pertex sleeve of some description to inhibit dew formation around the footbox area.

As a kid I camped in single-skin cotton army tents and slept under wool army blankets. It all seemed to work just fine – night in night out.

If there is any scientific research about what it is that an inner tent ACTUALLY does then I'd love to read it.

[Martin Rye]

Mike,

The only thing that the inner tent offers as far as I know are: There is possibly less safety in a single wall since damage to the fabric exposes you directly to the elements. A double skin tent offers some protection if the outer Is damaged, though I know no one who has had this happen to them.

Double wall construction increases temperature which can be an advantage. Also compared to a single skin offer protection to you and your equipment from condensation. Single wall tents like the Tarp Tents have lots of ventilation to keep condensation at bay and steep sides to prevent you brushing against the sides and to allow moisture to run down harmlessly but it could still be a problem. Look at Chris Townsend’s point on solid inners vs mesh inners which allow moister to drip through and you can see that an inner tent has its uses. Saying that I would like to have a single skin tent, but can’t find one yet I like the look of. I have seen no scientific evidence to prove what is best in the single skin vs double debate.

[Chris Townsend]

Mike, inner tents add warmth, wind resistance and a condensation barrier and are insect proof. I find they really do make a big difference.

I wouldn't want to rely on an inner tent if the outer tent tore however as lightweight inner tents are not waterproof and only wind-resistant. You'd probably be better wrapping yourself in the torn flysheet if you couldn't hike out.

[Martin Rye]

On the outer being ripped I’m not saying that the inner will protect from rain but offer some protection only if it was a small tear until you make a field repair just to be clear as I did not make it on the last posting. Chris is right, try to extract yourself if the worst happened. On warmth I have measured big differences in the inner tent compared to the porch temperature, let alone outside.

Also I had a walk by the river where I live tonight and the walk was a pain due to insect’s swarming around me, which reminded me of how I love the refuge of the inner tent on trips.

[Lynn Tramper]

"It would be nice to read about other people´s exeperience with UL equipment and the foul, damp, wet and cold side of wheather. This is for me the true test for UL equipment."

I gather the weather, midges and terrain in Scotland are not too different to what we face on the South Island. A tarp would be WAY outside my comfort zone on any but the most mild trips. A tarptent though, has been more than adequate in most circumstances except mid-winter storm conditions (which can happen any time of year). It's not just about the strength or temperature of the wind, it's about how it often changes directions violently and frequently. Whatever shelter I take, I want to be sure it will stand up to gale-force winds from any direction…plenty of stakes and guylines are essential to my set-up. However, I'm sure one could "tough it out" with very little gear if they really wanted to. I just don't want to go to that extreme of discomfort in my middle age.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mike

> I absolutely struggle to find any scientific reason why an inner tent – which is water-vapour transparent has any impact on the contents within an enclosed space.

Part of the problem is the way you have phrased the question. Yes, an inner tent is water-vapour transparent, but how much depends entirely on the fabric used.

Quite frankly, I have no time for the psuedo double skin tents which use netting for the inner tent. You get a whole lot of extra weight for an insect screen which could have been achieved with a single-skin tent and skilled design. Henry Shires tarptents illustrate this design perfectly.

One of the key specs for the fabric for a real inner tent is the air-flow rating. You want some porosity for replacement oxygen, but not a howling gale. If you use something like Pertex Microlight, P Quantum, or some of the other similar fabrics, you can have the inner tent blocking the wind and rain (and spindrift and midges) and keeping the inside temperature almost 5 C above ambient. That small increase in temperature has a wonderful effect on the humidity, reducing it significantly and keeping your SB much drier. Couple that with a real bathtub groundsheet ….

Well, that's been my experience anyhow.

Cheers

[Mike Hinsley]

Roger

yeah, my question wasn't phrased too well.

A typical u/l tent these days uses an inner tent that is nothing more than mesh on top of a deep groundsheet so the mesh cannot be adding anything of value in terms of water since it is transparent.

I also know that a mesh tent adds little in the way of warmth – since a typical mesh is say 80% air.

A more typical inner tent is made of something like 40gsm ripstop nylon for it's bulk. This has a weave that is close enough to provide some wind resistance and seems to be reasonably effective as a barrier against airbourne water. On a foggy day you will get fog in the tent but it's not too bad.

Under an enclosed tarp I've used a 3/4 length pertex top on my groundsheet – to create a micro-climate around the bottom of the bag where most dew seems to form.

When I've measured the water-gain in a bag after overnighting under a tarp and a tent and nothing and so on the tent does seem to consistently result in less water being absorbed by the bag.

Now this could be due to lack of repeatability in the experiments but it is consistent with long-time experience that moisture under a tarp seems often to be an issue when it never was in a tent.

After some tests last year I know that just making a bivvy bag with a 40gsm nylon top does not work – it just wets through.

Therefore it's suggestive that the real benefit of the inner tent is something to do with an airspace enclosed by an air-permeable and moisture semi-permeable membrane.

I'm discounting pure mesh inners for anything but summer.

I think there do seem to be benefits in something that behaves like an inner tent and if that's the case the question is how small can you get away with – outside of midgeland.

Pertex (that I can find) weighs in around 60gsm and so it's 50% heavier than the ripstop nylon that I have lying around.

The smallest 'practical' inner tent that can be constructed is going to look something like a coffin with a foot height of around 35cm and a shoulder height of around 60cm. It would need to be suspended in some way at the corners. It would also not be suitable for extended living in midgeland.

For me a usable bathtub groundsheet is around 150g and the 'best' inner tent that I have in my collection is around 450g. Somewhere between those two might lie something that's optimal.

If I can reduce the moisture intake of the sleeping bag then any weight-gain in the shelter thats only 1-200g will justify itself by being weight neutral.

…
This winter I did do some temperature measurements. Naturally pure mesh tents gave no variance but my winter tent (which is the typical 40gsm nylon) consistently gives +2C.

I didn't realise pertex gave such a high variance – that does suggest definite benefit in using pertex around the foot area of any inner tent design +5c will certainly help with dewpoint.

I can see the possibility of a hybrid inner tent that has a pertex area near the foot, switches to nylon and then has a mesh window near the head area. That might give the best/worst of both worlds and will probably weigh around 250g for a solo version… Hmmmm….
Obsessive moi!

[Mr E J Meechan]

Martin,

I've never seen it as my place to convince anyone of anything, or to promote any particular point of view, either on forum posts or in magazine articles. I simply report on my experiences. My first post was in reply to your request to 'hear how others have got on with two week walks in Scotland with tarps', and as I said, I get on fine with a tarp in Scotland. I didn't go into a list of the pros and cons of a tarp in bad weather since this is a thread on the Backpackinglight.com forum and I assumed everyone taking part in the discussion would already be well versed in these.

I'm not trying to sell the idea of tarp camping in Scotland to anyone. Why would I? I'm merely reporting that in my experience tarp camping in Scotland is entirely doable for anyone who is experienced in the use of tarps. And anyone experienced in the use of tarps is already well aware of their limitations. I don't see that the notion of 'honesty in conviction' has any relevance to my post.

You also seem to have misunderstood the intention of my magazine articles. I don't write them in the hope of persuading the average backpacker (and I don't use the word average here in a pejorative sense) to convert to ultralight backpacking. The type of articles I write are never going to appeal to the average backpacker, and they were never intended to. I write my articles for those who have already chosen to go ultralight. I really don't see the promotion of ultralight backpacking as part of what I do. I think that everybody should go backpacking in whatever style they see fit, and I have no desire to influence anyone's style. I'm just interested in an exchange of information on the subject, an exchange in which I'll learn much more than I could ever hope to pass on.

[Chris Townsend]

Mike, when referring to inner tents I did mean solid ones. I agree with Roger on mesh inner tents – I've tested quite a few and cannot see any advantages other than being insect proof and plenty of disadvantages.

I find the best inner tents have covered mesh panels in the door that can be opened for ventilation and to reduce the temperature when it's hot – the one on the Akto works well. Taking the temperature inside the inner with the door shut and the mesh panel covered results in temperatures ranging from +1 to +5 higher than in the tent porch or in the tent without the inner (easily done by disconnecting the inner and using it as a groundsheet). Of course there is also a variation between temperatures low down in the tent and at the apex and on different surfaces such as the groundsheet and a sleeping mat. Not using the inner tent in windy conditions also means the wind can be felt, which makes it feel colder. I am currently trying to assess the difference in total weight between tarps, flysheets/tarp tents and double-skin tents with regard to warmth and the amount of clothing/sleeping equipment needed to be comfortable.

[Mike Hinsley]

" I am currently trying to assess the difference in total weight between tarps, flysheets/tarp tents and double-skin tents with regard to warmth and the amount of clothing/sleeping equipment needed to be comfortable"

You're not the only one ;-) But I also favour KISL (Keep it Simple and Light).

[Martin Rye]

Eddy,

Thanks for your reply and let me say that yes these forums are for learning and debating. If you feel that I judged you or misunderstood your intentions let me apologise and say "I respect your views, person, writings, and love of all things backpacking".

I do find the cutting edge of light weight backpacking you undertake challenging and maybe just beyond what I would at this time undertake, but I uphold you choice to travel the hills that way. Still taking my tent with me though.

Safe hiking.

[Chris Townsend]

Mike, I certainly believe in keeping it light and simple too. Often, though, I find that a double-skin tent, down sleeping bag and insulating mat is the simplest combination to use in Scottish conditions, if not the very lightest. I can set up camp in a storm with the Akto in a few minutes. In other drier places a tarp, down sleeping bag, groundsheet and insulating mat is just as simple (in fact in those places I often only pitch the tarp if it's windy or wet and sometimes don't bother laying out the groundsheet).

I've tried various tarps and single-skin tents in the Highlands over the years and will go on doing so. However for trips of more than a few nights I still prefer a double-skin tent. And in midge season I prefer one even for an overnight trip.

[Martin Rye]

Chris,

I’m intrigued how you would “assess the difference in total weight between tarps, flysheets/tarp tents and double-skin tents with regard to warmth and the amount of clothing/sleeping equipment needed to be comfortable" Have you some kind weight of shelter vs it total feet per space measurement. A bit like how you measure rucksacks volume to weight. I suppose that this would vary in distinguishing between single skin and double skin shelters.

Next how would you provide a fair assessment of warmth in the shelter say in 3 season use and what clothing/sleeping would be needed. An example may be total loft of clothing and sleeping equipment combined to stay warm in each shelter vs a set range of temperature? Your goal is intriguing and I would like to know how you see this research panning out. Good luck with the assessment I look forward to seeing your findings.

[Chris Townsend]

Martin, assessing the difference is very difficult for the reasons you say. Obviously if I use a big tarp like the Kathmandu Trekking Basha-Tent, which could sleep four, I have masses of room compared with the Akto and save some weight. However the Basha-Tent is cooler than the Akto so I might want more clothing and/or a warmer sleeping bag. With small tarps that don't offer full protection against wind driven rain then a bivvy bag has to be added to the weight.

What is key is that you can't just compare the weights of the actual shelter – tarp v tent, single-skin tent v double-skin tent – but have to take into account other items of gear. It's the weight of the whole system that matters not of individual components. I know people who use tarp/bivvy bag combinations that are lighter than many double-skin tents but who also use synthetic sleeping bags that are quite a bit heavier than equivalent down ones.

Assessing the warmth required for different shelters is also difficult. I tested a single skin tent early last autumn and needed to wear a windproof insulated jacket inside it to keep warm due to the cool breeze blowing in through a vent that couldn't be closed. At that time of year I wouldn't normally have carried such a jacket (it was a test item)but I was glad of it. Of course if I'd just had my usual 100-weight fleece top I would have worn a windproof or waterproof over it to achieve the same effect. However if I'd had the Akto, which weighs 100 grams more than the single skin tent, I'd have been warm inside just wearing the fleece top but would have still carried the windproof and waterproof.

I still have to work out the details for a fair and useful assessment!

[Martin Rye]

Chris,

It will be worth working out the detail as the research will be taking your gear testing to greater depths and understanding and it’s already of the highest calibre.

The idea of combing kit is something I do in using a down jacket with a light summer bag for most of my winter walking, as you know the UK does not often throw up many -10 nights ( especially south of the Highlands). I would welcome in-depth understanding of kit combinations that could work and lower pack weight, get out on those hills and let us know.

Thanks

[Mike Hinsley]

When you look at the total system then it does become more interesting.

I know that if I'm under a tarp I will wear more clothing than if I was in a tent for the same conditions but that this is clothing that I would probably carry.

I already know that for extended use a synthetic bag seems more suitable for UK tarping than a down bag but that a good syntethic bag is maybe 500g-1Kg heavier than the equivalent quality down bag.

For a 2-3 day trip you can easily get away with a shelter that is OKish for the conditions but for longer trips that doesn't work.

But really I'm worrying about not much weight at all. My current enclosed tarp is around 850g complete and a Laser is going to be around 1300g – a delta of 450g or 0.5L of water.

But then the down bag will perform better and be more resilient and the shelter will be more comfortable and of course midge-free.

My current pack carries so well that 500g is more a philosophy issue than a practical one.

I already have an interesting selection of tarps and tents and bivvies but each are really optimised for shorter trips.

The old Saunders tent is better for longer trips and midgeland but lacking in headroom – still it could be pimped to match the weight of the laser…

[Martin Rye]

Mike

Pimping tents to lower weight is something I’m looking in to with my Laser. I have found the company for the task just need to talk prices with them etc.

The idea of combinations of kit having a multi task is great and consider this. If the inner tent provides say warmth equivalent to maybe 5 degrees more and weighs say 400g total. This then could negate in our pack weight a piece of clothing which would offer comparable weight if say we used a single skin tent and needed the clothing to keep warm in camp due to its venting allowing in more cold air. Therefore their may be no advantage in weight saved by having a single skin tent as an example.

After looking at the points raised by Chris I see the inner tent as some thing much more integral in my planning for trips. It’s about the total weight actually needed vs what we in reality take at present.

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