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Sleeping pad choices


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  • #1416438
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    John,
    Not sure what your budget would be, but the warmlite DAM can be orderd at any length shorter (not sure about longer) then standard. I have the size 56 DAM at a custom length of 48" on order right now. You could order the wider sizes and have them made at a custom length of your choice. Mine was the same price as a stock pad – you'd have to ask them if it would be the same for your situation.
    HTH

    #1416439
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    ooops – :)

    #1416475
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    If width is important, then I agree the Stephenson's DAM is a good bet. Pricey, and definitely not the lightest pad on the market, but at a standard shoulder width of 24 inches it can't be beat.

    #1419015
    Christopher Chupka
    Member

    @fattexan

    Locale: NTX

    I would like to make this my new winter pad combined with a closed cell foam pad. Anyone have any issues blowing these up with moisture in the breath and freezing issues?

    I guess that same question goes for any non self inflating pads that does not come with a pump.

    #1419022
    Ryan Gardner
    Spectator

    @splproductions

    When using a torso sized inflatable pad, does anyone find it uncomfotable being raised so high off of the ground just on half of your body? It seems like your knee joints would "lock" together when laying on your back because they are dangling off the pad. I hope that makes sense.

    #1419025
    Christopher Chupka
    Member

    @fattexan

    Locale: NTX

    I am pretty comfy with the Torsolite and the GG Thinlight underneath. I guess there is not much of "shelf" than with the uber thick pads.

    In summer the GG Nightlight pad is not thick enough for me to create that shelf. I can only use the Nightlight after judicious campsite selection.

    One more question is the recommended method for the closed cell and inflatable combo for the closed cell to be on top and inflatable on the ground? And can the reasons be explained to me?

    Thanks

    #1419065
    Andrew King
    Member

    @drewboy

    Locale: Arizona

    With the 2.5" inflatables, you generally need to deflate them a bit for maximum comfort. The result is that you tend to sink into them and lie fairly close to the ground level. I normally have my backpack under my legs for lower insulation as well, and between the two I do not get the feeling that my legs are hanging off a ledge.

    #1419069
    Ryan Gardner
    Spectator

    @splproductions

    Andrew,

    Thanks for the info. I haven't tried a super-inflatable pad like the BA's or PO Thermo's. All this talk of the Thermo 6 makes me want to try it – I was just leery about the height off the ground.

    Christopher,

    The "ledge" I was thinking about was using a pad that inflates a whole lot. Also, using a closed cell foam pad on top seems pointless to me. I use a Thinlight UNDER my self-inflating pad to give a little extra cushion and to eliminate any possibility of puncture throughout the night. I wonder why people would put it on top?

    #1419134
    Greyson Howard
    Member

    @greyhound

    Locale: Sierra Nevada

    People put closed-cell foam pads on top of inflatables, especially the Insulmat and Big Agnes pads, because the better insulation of the foam is better utilized closer to the body.

    A somewhat popular combo used to be an un-insulated big agnes or insulmat with a 1/8 GG foam pad on top of it – I tried this combo in both juxtapositions, and found foam under provided no warmth.

    With an insulated inflatable, however, I would be more inclined to put the foam under.

    My two cents on the Insulmat Thermo: I have the previous generation insulated in 2/3 length, and I've found fully inflated, the shelf affect is noticeable, and partially deflating makes for a cold mat, in my experience, so I have yet to strike a good balance with that pad.

    My next pad purchase, as funding becomes available, will be a Montbell 150: I really like a head-to-knee length pad. I used a Gossamer Gear nightlight in that length, which worked fine with high-mileage fatigue, but wasn't quite comfortable enough on overnight trips.

    #1419141
    Timothy Roper
    Member

    @lazybones

    Locale: Alabama

    When I use my BA IAC, I inflate it fully, lay on it and open the valve, deflating until I almost touch the ground. This gives me the most comfortable 'fit' and I don't feel like I'm riding a raft.

    If I get up and look at it, it looks like it's 1/3 or 1/4 inflated when I have it right.

    #1419229
    Craig Burton
    Member

    @missingutah

    Locale: Smoky Mountains

    It wasn't until I added the 4th season (this season) to my backpacking calendar when I finally used a sleeping pad for the first time. Suffice to say, with only a few years of backpacking under my belt, I am nowhere near as experienced as the vast majority of posters here; but I simply never saw a need for a sleeping pad.

    I really was surprised when I came here that everyone uses a sleeping pad. I gathered that the sleeping pad would be one of the first thing a backpacker ditches when transitioning to the more "primitive" realm of ultralight backpacking.

    My site selection was always a little more difficult than most. I had to find soft ground that wouldn't completely turn to mud or a stream if the weather turned for the worse. Cool nights above treeline were exceptionally difficult to sleep in, which is why I finally opted for my Downmat 7.

    I love my new sleeping pad for the winter use I've had it for, but I see no real advantage other than warmth. When the weather warms up I'm going back to using no pad again.

    By no means am I an easy sleeper, but I think that has a lot less to do with comfort than other factors. Does anyone else opt for no pad for 3-season use?

    #1419234
    Ryan Gardner
    Spectator

    @splproductions

    Craig,

    I find that I lose a lot of my heat from the ground. I haven't done a "scientific" test of this, but it seems like the less insulation on the ground I have, I need more on top of me to make me "feel" warm. (I don't know if that makes sense). So by having adequate insulation under me, I can bring a lighter sleeping bag and less clothing to sleep in.

    #1419236
    Ryan Gardner
    Spectator

    @splproductions

    I was just looking at a pic on MLD's site showing ground saturated with fallen leaves and duff. That looks plush and cushy! I realized that I have never slept on anything like that, and never had the opportunity to. The places I backpack (mostly Utah) don't have that kind of ground. In the desert I'm on sandstone or dirt (which isn't soft at all), in the mountains I'm on hard dirt, maybe some light grass. There are "forests" here, but consist more of aspens and pine trees, not big broad-leafed trees that make soft ground.

    Maybe locale plays a bigger role in pad selection than I ever thought.

    #1419271
    Diana R
    BPL Member

    @mysticmoose-2

    Locale: Great Lakes region

    I think you're right about location making a difference with insulation needs. Using my BA insulated air core at 30 – 35F, I've been just about warm enough on leaves and pine needles, but froze on rocky clay and dirt. My backyard tests on snow were enough to convince me that it wasn't a good idea to take it winter camping.

    Aside from an Exped DAM, I haven't had good experiences with either the BA IAC or POE Max Thermo below 30F. Granted, I haven't tried the new POE Ether, but a little strip of insulation glued to the top of a tube of air just doesn't seem sufficient.

    That said, I'd never go back to a self-inflater. The air mattresses have spoiled me! The only leak/puncture I've ever had was after I carelessly leaned my BA pad against a tree. When I sat back against it, I pushed it right into a broken-off branch, and got a nice big hole. The included repair kit worked well and got me through the weekend, but it does leak now around the patch. Maye I screwed up, though…

    #1419332
    John Carter
    Member

    @jcarter1

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    I own and have spent at least one night on a 1/8" GG Thinlight, GG Torsolight, Thermarest Prolite 3, Ether Thermo 6 2/3, and a Big Agnes Insulate Air Core (long). My current compromise for a 30 year-old 6'2" somewhat overweight guy is the Ether Thermo 6 with a thinlight. The Ether is the perfect compromise; I get plush comfort for my torso and hips, but save 8oz over my BA. I always bring the Thinlight for my legs, for a temp boost in marginal weather, or a backup pad in case of catastrophic puncture.

    I personally like the feeling of sleeping on my back on these thick pads; though my arms dangle down, it spreads my shoulders apart, helping me breathe easier and is a nice change of pace from hunching over the trail all day and hunching over my evening meal preparations. But I'm a pretty big guy, so it may be more of a nuisance for others.

    I also find that, when deflated a little, and using the Thinlight for my legs only (doubled over for a total 1/4" thickness), I notice almost no shelf effect at all.

    Lastly, I actually prefer the ridges of the 6-tube Ether Thermo over the 8-tube BA. This was actually a shock to me, as I originally purchased the BA due to its flatter design. But I find that, when lying on my stomach, I am able to wedge my chin into the fold between two adjacent tubes, which means I don't have to crane my neck as far to the side. On my BA, lying on my stomach puts a kink in my neck. due to the pressure on my chin. Also, I am able to place my knees into these folds, which gives better support to my hips than the BA.

    But this thread has got me thinking. If I'm bringing the 1/8" thinlight as a backup anyway, and it would be a pretty poor backup as a primary pad in cold weather, I might try something new: mate a BA Clearview pad with a 1/4" thinlight (placed on top and trimmed to fit). This would put all of the insulation in the foam pad.

    The thicker Thinlight would make a better backup pad, and it would be more comfortable as a lunch stop/afternoon nap pad (I usually don't bother to inflate my Ether during the day). This combination would save me a few ounces. Of course, I would have a less durable inflatable, making it more likely that I would need to make use of the backup foam pad. And I would be placing the foam on the top, leaving the bottom of the Clearview exposed rocks and thorns. Of course I could bring two 1/8" foam pads instead (one on top of the Clearview and one on bottom), but I doubt the combined effect would be as warm as a single layer of 1/4" foam on the top. Any thoughts/comments?

    #1419351
    Joshua Mitchell
    Member

    @jdmitch

    Locale: Kansas

    Thermodynamically, it's rather marginal where you place the foam insulation. With one on top and one on bottom, the only heat loss out of the BA Clearview will be through the sidewalls which is a rather small surface area to lose heat out of.

    Both on top, you'll lose from the sides and the bottom, however the temp of air in the clearview is going to be much lower (because it's more insulated from your body) which results in little, if any, difference from the above.

    Ultimately, if heat loss through the sidewalls were a non-issue. It would make absolutely zero difference where you placed the foam pads. Total heat flux depends on total delta T and total thermal resistance (order of resistors makes no difference). However, the sidewall issues muddy this a little, but not much as their total surface area is relatively low.

    #1419364
    Ryan Gardner
    Spectator

    @splproductions

    All this talk of self-inflatables being heavenly is making me want the Thermo 6. I would actually save two ounces going with the Thermo over my REI Lite-Core (18oz). REI dividend checks are coming…

    The 1/8" Thinlight weighs 2oz full sized. What if you cut that in half, as well as trimmed the edges down to 16" or so (to cover where your body is actually putting a lot of pressure on the pad). You could put one on top of the pad and one on the bottom. The 1/8" with the sides trimmed could maybe get down to 1.6oz?

    Then bring a slab of 1/4" Thinlight – about 2oz worth, to put under your legs and feet.

    I've tried various things like this with my Lite-Core, and the only thing I don't like is bringing all these foam pads, cut at different lengths, arranging them, sometimes re-arranging them in the night because they have shifted, etc. You get the picture. It feels simpler and nicer to have one pad, and one slab of Thinlight.

    Just my two cents.

    #1419366
    John Carter
    Member

    @jcarter1

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    I hear you about the hassle of multiple foam pads. I remember snow camping once with two Torsolights, and I woke up every hour or so with a cold bottom whenever the two pads slid apart from one another. This still occasionally happens when I use a thinlight folded up for my legs.

    I have, however, found that a foam pad stays put if placed on an inflatable. In fact, putting the Thinlight under my inflatables really keeps them in place, and acts as a sort of glue adhering the inflatable to the groundsheet. Placing the thinlight above the pad also sticks remarkably well; I can shift from my back to my side without movement, as the friction between them really keeps things in place. I really like how grippy too GG foam is! But it seems to be much more grippy with the full weight of my torso, while it still slides around under my legs (or maybe I just kick a lot in my sleep!)

    I think I would try to find away to attach the 1/8" and 1/4" pieces so that it makes one long full-length pad, to which I place the torso pad on top. Of course, if I were truly thinking about a viable option if the pad bursts, then I should be thinking about carrying a full-length 1/4" pad. But that sounds so bulky! At least the inflatable would pack smaller without the insulation.

    Something else I just realized–the slightest Clearview pad is 11oz, but it's 60" long! So I could get a longer pad (aka more comfort) for lighter weight than my 47" pads (including the Thermo 2/3). Since the GG pads are all 60", these would pair quire well. Now it's just making the decision between two 1/8" Thinlights or one 1/4" Thinlight. one advantage of two 1/8" pads: they would pack easier; two rolled up side by side could fit in a side pocket. I've never liked wrapping my pads around my gear in my bag, because then I can't pull the pad out for my lunch break without completely unpacking my bag!

    I usually don't need a pad for my feet anyway, as I just double up my socks (I bring spares anyway), which adds an equivalent amount of insulation. And if it does get cold, it's not to hard to curl up a bit on a 60" pad.

    I also just noticed that the non-insulated Ether Thermo 2/3 is 3oz lighter than the insulated version. If I decide the Clearview is not sturdy enough, I could compromise with the non-insulated Ether and still save a few ounces. Still, 60" and even lighter makes the Clearview quite tempting!

    #1419390
    Mark Verber
    BPL Member

    @verber

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    > Thermodynamically, it's rather marginal where you place the foam insulation.

    Hmmm… I haven't tried sandwiching an air mattress between two foam pads, but I have tried it with foam on the bottom and other times with the foam on the top. It subjectively seemed like the foam on the top was warmer. Maybe because the foam insulation results in a lower temp delta, so convection is slower? Any physicists in the house? :)

    As far as the thinlight 1/8 or 1/4. Yes, 2 1/8 is more packable than the 1/4… but I found the 1/4 more durable. It's possible to accidentally tear the 1/8. Hasn't happened with the 1/4. The other issue with the 1/8 is that since it has almost no rigidity, that when it's on top of something slippery, and you are moving on top of it, it can end up getting scrunched down leaving cold spots. I experienced this in a bad way when I tried to use one in a hammock.

    –mark

    #1419396
    Joshua Mitchell
    Member

    @jdmitch

    Locale: Kansas

    Nice points Mark… with the foam on top, you're moving more of the total delta T / heat flux away from your body and located into the pad. Er… I'm not sure if I'm explaining that right… you felt cooler because the actual temp touching your body would have been lower, but net heat loss would have been roughly the same (we're talking where the heat generated is in the core of your body and the ultimate transfer of said heat to the ground).

    Basically, the foam next to your body moved the primary delta t away from the surface of your body, so you didn't FEEL it as much.

    The difference between 1/4" on top or 1/8" 'sandwich' shouldn't, theoretically, be noticeable (as again you're shifting the primary delta T away from the surface of your body). However, you make a really good point about the rigidity issues, that could cause a problem…

    #1419899
    John Carter
    Member

    @jcarter1

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    There's also probably a difference using an uninsulated air pad in a bivy versus out of a bivy/no bivy. Using cc foam on top or below still leaves the sides open to expel heat, but I would think a bivy would help trap and recycle that heat back into the sleep system. It would at least create a warm layer of air between the outside of the sides of the air pad and the outside of the bivy, reducing heat loss.

    It would probably help even more to wrap one's sleeping quilt around the bottom of the pad; the bag would provide the insulation to the sides of the pad. This may even allow one to place the cc foam under the pad with no more heat loss than placed above the pad. It would take a little longer to warm up since you first have to heat the air in the pad, but it should already be warm from having just blown it up. Once warm, though, the air in the uninsulated air pad should be well insulated with the foam below and the quilt along the sides (and a bivy outside of this). The problem with this, of course, is the dead air space created by wrapping one's bag under the pad (versus around one's body).

    #1420542
    Kirt Runolfson
    BPL Member

    @kirt

    Locale: Inland Northwest

    I can confirm Mark's impressions that a 1/8" closed cell foam pad seems warmer when placed on top of a Big Agnes Insulated Air Core inflatable mattress. I experimented on a Mt Adams last June in sub freezing temps and much preferred the cc pad to be on top as well.

    BA rates this pad as adequate down to 15 degrees. This seems a bit on the optimistic side, especially considering that the insulation is quite sparse in these mattresses.

    The cc pad help a great deal eliminating the coolness of the sleeping surface which, in my Marmot Helium, is noticeable.

    #1420548
    Steven Evans
    BPL Member

    @steve_evans

    Locale: Canada

    Yep, closed cell on top. I have no scientific reason for it other then it is warmer. If I use a MB 90 with a 3/8 CC pad underneath, I struggle below 0 degrees C, if I put the 3/8 CC pad on top, no problems all the way down to -20C… huge difference for me.
    I thought it had more to do with spreading out the load applied on the inflatable mattress. If the inflatable is on top, things like hips/elbows/shoulders can compress the pad to near nothing and use only the closed cell underneath for insulation.
    With the CC on top, your hip/etc. pressure is displaced over a larger area and therefore doesn't compress it as much.
    …just my conspiracy theories…

    #1420549
    Dondo .
    BPL Member

    @dondo

    Locale: Colorado Rockies

    >>I thought it had more to do with spreading out the load applied on the inflatable mattress. If the inflatable is on top, things like hips/elbows/shoulders can compress the pad to near nothing and use only the closed cell underneath for insulation.
    With the CC on top, your hip/etc. pressure is displaced over a larger area and therefore doesn't compress it as much.
    …just my conspiracy theories…

    That was my impression of what was happening. I bring a 3/8" Thinlite with a Montbell 90 when I expect to be sleeping on snow, the 1/4" otherwise. Closed cell on top of open is definitely warmer. It also feels more comfortable for my hips, for the same reason you describe–the pressure is displaced over a larger area. That said, if there is any possibility of puncture, such as in desert areas, the closed cell goes on the bottom.

    #1420733
    Joshua Mitchell
    Member

    @jdmitch

    Locale: Kansas

    John,

    Yes, it would as the air matress would be losing heat ot the temp on the inside of the bivy rather than the temp of outside air.

    You'd be amazed the insulative properties of a single layer of fabric when it traps a film of air…

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