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Polycarbonate controversry


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  • #1412181
    George Matthews
    BPL Member

    @gmatthews

    The whistleblower pictured below has come forth and claimed that the poly research was probably tainted because he and many others that were tested often smoked and got drunk at night after the researchers went home.

    chimp

    #1412188
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    Jason, I so agree with you!

    This for example could be dangerous:
    Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

    But oh so worth it! For anyone who has hiked the Eagle Creek Trail in Oregon will recognize where that was taken, the trail goes behind a massive waterfall there. Much of the trail for many miles is blasted into a canyon wall. It is wet, covered in moss and 1 1/2 people wide.

    #1412192
    Kevin Clayton
    Member

    @kclayton

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone

    I am going to continue to drink out of my nalgene every day until it breaks, if it ever does.
    But I think there is a big difference between hiking on a dangerous trail, climbing mountains, sky diving, seeking joy in life through dangerous activities -and exposing yourself to avoidable toxins, or hormones or whatever is in everything in this modern world.
    One thing both increases quality of life, and probability of death or injury,
    While the other only increases probability of health problems.

    #1412195
    Brian James
    Member

    @bjamesd

    Locale: South Coast of BC

    >>>I think there is a big difference between hiking on a dangerous trail, climbing mountains, sky diving, seeking joy in life through dangerous activities -and exposing yourself to avoidable toxins, or hormones or whatever is in everything in this modern world.

    >>>One thing both increases quality of life, and probability of death or injury, while the other only increases probability of health problems.

    Well-put. Once you lose you health, you don't really have anything else anymore anyway.

    Sarah: that is dangerous, but also exhilarating and life-enhancing! What is life-enhancing about refusing to switch plastics?

    Brian

    #1412201
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    "Sarah: that is dangerous, but also exhilarating and life-enhancing! What is life-enhancing about refusing to switch plastics?"

    Simply put for me: I use plastics in moderation. Every year there are studies popping up about how one plastic or another is the evil one. So I thought about it, realized that I use plastics for drinking cold beverages out of at home and on trail. I don't use plastic much beyond that. I thought about it hard and long and realized there is no warranty or guarantee on any plastic type out there, and it just isn't worth the stress worrying about it. It is for me not even a blip on the worry meter.

    I worry about other things more that do directly affect my health such as consuming too much sodium, fat or fake colors. I worry about diabetes and glaucoma that runs in my family. I think more about what my chances of a heart attack are due to genetics. I wonder about how toxic my meds are that I take. I wonder more about how much toxins have been put in my teeth in the past 2 years – work that will help prevent diabetes and heart disease in the next couple decades of my life.

    Maybe it is me or maybe all the Vicodin I have ingested tonight. Something tells me that Vitamin V is worse for me than drinking out of my PC glass. Still I wonder, what will the implants I am getting in my mouth carry in toxins?

    Then I realize that I'll do my best, live as clean as I can and just not worry. And personally accept that I like PC material and find it safe for myself.

    #1412203
    Mike W
    BPL Member

    @skopeo

    Locale: British Columbia

    #1412297
    David Lewis
    BPL Member

    @davidlewis

    Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada

    Two thoughts…

    1. Anecdotes are meaningless.
    2. Sarah… you don't like drinking out of glass??? Seems odd. But whatever :)

    #1412304
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    Yes, I know it is weird. I prefer straws and or plastic tumblers. I don't like clanging my teeth on glass or metal. Gives me the willies. Same reason I like using Lexan utensils.
    As well my front molar dental work has left the teeth cold sensitive, and youch! Glass cups stay cold!

    #1412323
    Andrew :-)
    Member

    @terra

    Locale: Sydney, Australia.

    Anecdotes like case studies are usually what start research. They are probably better classed as 'thought provoking, but inconclusive'. This is different to meaningless. :-)

    #1413188
    Tom Clark
    BPL Member

    @tomclark

    Locale: East Coast

    It seems like people are fairly polarized on this topic and have their opinions set. Regardless, I thought I'd share a recent news release.

    Second major Canadian retailer stops selling bisphenol A bottles
    Environmental Defence congratulates Lululemon for choosing not to sell
    bottles with toxic chemical

    TORONTO, Dec. 18 /CNW/ – Lululemon became the second large Canadian retailer to stop selling polycarbonate water bottles that leach the toxic chemical, bisphenol A. The decision takes effect in January. With mounting evidence for the chemical's dangers, Lululemon has followed Mountain Equipment Co-op's example in deciding to stock safer alternatives. Environmental Defence applauded Lululemon today for putting their customers' health first. Bisphenol A is currently under review as part of the federal government's Chemicals Management Plan, and the Ontario government recently announced an expert panel will review bisphenol A and other toxic chemicals with a view to regulating them.
    "These are the retailers that get it," said Dr. Rick Smith, Executive Director, Environmental Defence. "They recognize that there are alternatives and have made their customers' health the priority. I have no doubt that other
    large Canadian retailers will be following suit in short order."
    Lululemon and Mountain Equipment Co-op have joined Patagonia in deciding not to sell the hard plastic bottles that leach bisphenol A. The chemical is found in clear reusable water bottles and baby bottles made from polycarbonate, as well as in the linings of some food cans (including infant formula cans).
    Two recent panels in the U.S. have pointed to potential health effects of exposure to bisphenol A. The U.S. National Institute of Environmental Health
    Sciences expert panel of 38 leading scientists found that most people are exposed to bisphenol A at levels higher than those that cause health effects in animal studies. An expert panel of the U.S. National Toxicology Program
    concluded recently that bisphenol A exposure to fetuses and to children could have behavioural and nervous system impacts.
    "The dangers of bisphenol A in food and drink are becoming clear, and it won't be long before this chemical is gone completely from food and beverage containers," said Dr. Kapil Khatter, Environmental Defence's Pollution Policy Advisor.
    Washington, DC-based Environmental Working Group and Environmental Defence co-released a study recently that found bisphenol A in the linings of all major manufacturers of canned infant formula. Previous studies show that the bisphenol A leaches into the formula. Environmental Defence is working with daycare centres across Canada to remove products containing bisphenol A.
    As part of its national Toxic Nation campaign, environmental Defence has tested Canadians and politicians for toxic chemicals in their bodies. Everyone tested for bisphenol A had measurable levels in their blood. Full test results are available online at http://www.toxicnation.ca.
    About Environmental Defence (www.environmentaldefence.ca): Environmental Defence protects the environment and human health. We research. We educate. We go to court when we have to. All in order to ensure clean air, safe food and thriving ecosystems. Nationwide.

    #1413795
    Jonathan Marshall
    BPL Member

    @marshallj9

    Locale: Bay Area

    Here's another new story:

    The Water's a Must, but the Bottle Could Be Trouble

    Retailers, Regulators and Researchers Wrestle With Whether Polycarbonate Containers Pose Health Risk

    By Ben Dobbin
    Associated Press, December 25, 2007

    ROCHESTER, N.Y. — Catching his breath at a fitness club, Matt McHugh took a gulp of water from his trusty Nalgene plastic bottle and pondered the idea of switching to an alternative made of glass, stainless steel or another kind of plastic.

    Worries about a hormone-mimicking chemical used in the bottles' construction led a major Canadian retailer to remove polycarbonate containers made by Nalgene and other manufacturers from store shelves in early December.

    "It's definitely a concern, but I'd like to learn more before I make any decisions about my water bottles," McHugh, 26, a business manager for a reggae band, said with an easy laugh. "For now, I'll probably keep using my Nalgene until it breaks. It's indestructible, I've heard."

    Vancouver-based Mountain Equipment Co-op is waiting for Canadian health regulators to finish a preliminary review in May before it reconsiders restocking its 11 stores with the reusable, transparent bottles made with bisphenol A, or BPA, a compound created by a Russian chemist in 1891.

    There is little dispute that the chemical can disrupt the hormonal system, but scientists differ markedly on whether very low doses found in food and beverage containers can be harmful. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration sides with the plastics industry that BPA-based products do not pose a health risk.

    But an expert panel of researchers reported at a U.S. government conference that the potential for BPA to affect human health is a concern and that more research is needed. The panel cited evidence that Americans have levels of BPA higher than those found to cause harm in lab animals.

    Patagonia, an outdoor-gear retailer based in Ventura, Calif., pulled polycarbonate water bottles from its 40 stores worldwide in December 2005 and, a month later, the Whole Foods Markets chain stopped selling polycarbonate baby bottles and children's drinking cups.

    Some environmental groups in the United States and Canada expect others will soon follow suit.

    "Given there are comparably priced, greener alternatives, I'm quite convinced that within a couple of years, we're going to see the end of this chemical in consumer products," said Rick Smith, executive director of Toronto-based Environmental Defense Canada.

    The controversy turned an unwelcome spotlight on Nalge Nunc International, a division of Waltham, Mass.-based Thermo Fisher Scientific. It employs about 900 people at a plant tucked behind a shopping plaza in the Rochester suburb of Penfield.

    "Rarely has a chemical been the subject of such intense scientific testing and scrutiny, and still important agencies across the globe agree that there is no danger posed to humans from polycarbonate bottles," Tom Cummins, a Nalge Nunc research director, said in a statement.

    The company declined to allow executives to be interviewed. Its consumer products arm, with estimated sales of $50 million to $65 million, accounts for a fraction of Thermo Fisher's $9.5 billion in annual revenue.

    UBS Investment Research analyst Derik De Bruin told investors Nalge Nunc also makes translucent containers made of other, softer plastics such as polyethylene. So even a wider retailer recall of polycarbonate products "would likely have minimal impact on the company," he wrote.

    Nalge Nunc was founded in 1949 by Rochester chemist Emanuel Goldberg. The lab-equipment supplier evolved in the 1970s when rumors about its scientists taking hardy lab vessels on weekend outings led to a water-bottle consumer unit targeting Boy Scouts, hikers and campers.

    In 2000, a new sports line of Nalgene-brand bottles offered in red, blue and yellow hues quickly became the rage in high schools and on college campuses.

    Highly durable and lightweight, resistant to stains and odors, and able to withstand extremes of hot and cold, screw-cap Nalgene bottles are marketed as an environmentally responsible substitute for disposable water bottles. This holiday season, they were offered in new colors such as amber, moss green and vibrant violet.

    In this city on Lake Ontario's southern shore, judgments about a long-admired local business were invariably leavened with sympathy.

    "Nalgene is the hallmark water bottle for the backcountry," said businessman and skiing enthusiast Rob Norris, 58, as he shopped for a backpack at an Eastern Mountain Sports store.

    "I don't have any reservations right now," he said. "To me, it's one of these overreaching things where there's some microscopic particles that could leach out of a piece of plastic. But who knows what's in the water we're drinking?"

    But Ellen Guisto, 31, a stay-at-home mother of two, said a growing chorus of concern about the chemical makes her hesitate. "I'm not an alarmist by nature, but if I hear there's a chance that this may cause cancer, I don't think I would use it," she said.

    Prompted by a swell of complaints over more than three years, Mountain Equipment — Canada's largest consumer cooperative, with 2.7 million members — said it removed mostly polycarbonate water bottles and food containers but left water filters and other products containing the chemical on store shelves. It also will continue to sell Nalgene containers made of other plastics, spokesman Tim Southam said.

    In response, the FDA reiterated: "BPA has been used in consumer products for over 50 years. In that time, there has been no evidence that BPA is harmful to humans, either as the result of dietary intake or industrial worker exposures."

    With more than 6 million pounds produced in the United States each year, bisphenol A is found in dental sealants, the liners of food cans, CDs and DVDs, eyeglasses, and hundreds of household items.

    An expert panel of 38 academic and government researchers who attended a National Institutes of Health-sponsored conference said in a study in August that "the potential for BPA to impact human health is a concern, and more research is clearly needed."

    #1413929
    David King
    Member

    @coyotewhips

    I think for those of us with PVC plumbing, the bottle we use for hiking isn't going to make a significant difference.

    #1413957
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    > Nalge Nunc was founded in 1949 by Rochester chemist Emanuel Goldberg. The lab-equipment supplier evolved in the 1970s when rumors about its scientists taking hardy lab vessels on weekend outings led to a water-bottle consumer unit targeting Boy Scouts, hikers and campers.

    Believe it or not, the research scientist who pushed Nalge into thinking about the outdoors market for their products was ME. I was working for the CSIRO in Australia at the time, and we had all these great looking leakproof containers … and I convinced the local distributor to start selling them to the gear shops.

    Cheers

    #1413998
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    Recently on a PBS station I heard a disturbing news report about "soft" plastics used in the U. S. (but made in China)

    Reportedly there is an ingredient called THALLITES (spelling may not be correct)that the Chinese – and some U.S. companies – use in making "soft" plastics.

    BUT, Chinese-made soft plastics headed to Europe do NOT contain Thallites because the EU won't accept plastics with this carcinogen in them.

    Nice work U.S. Consumer Product Safety folks! Geeze, thanks for your great watchdog work…NOT!

    Eric

    #1414004
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    Phthalates

    #1414014
    Tom Clark
    BPL Member

    @tomclark

    Locale: East Coast

    Yes, phthalates have been linked to potential problems too. Although it is part of PET's name, it is part of the polymer backbone, and is not typically considered a problem. When water companies or universities have done taste panels with bottles water (this is a very bland product, so any off-flavor is easily noticed), there can be flavor from either the bottle or bottlecap. Acetaldehyde (AA) can come from PET bottles, lots of flavor can come from HDPE bottles (e.g., blowing agents), and some closures use a soft liner to create a good seal. Those liners are usually used in carbonated drinks, and some of them include phthalates, which can contribute off-flavors. The AA that can come from PET bottles is a naturally occuring compound that exists in ripe fruit, coffee, and bread so it is not considered a problem at the ppm level.

    #1414038
    David Lewis
    BPL Member

    @davidlewis

    Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada

    Re: PVC… PVC is only used for the drains… not the supply lines

    Re: Watchdogs… not surprising at all. US regulations on EVERYTHING are lower than in Europe. Regulations are bad for business you see. Go USA.

    #1414164
    David King
    Member

    @coyotewhips

    "Re: PVC… PVC is only used for the drains… not the supply lines"

    My bad. CPVC plumbing.

    http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=18255

    #1414188
    Joe Clement
    BPL Member

    @skinewmexico

    Locale: Southwest

    Next thing you know, they'll find out that life leads to death.

    #1418448
    Brian James
    Member

    @bjamesd

    Locale: South Coast of BC

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080130/heat_bottles_080130/20080130/

    Heat causes chemical to leach from plastic bottles

    Updated Wed. Jan. 30 2008 2:37 PM ET

    CTV.ca News Staff

    Water and baby bottles made from polycarbonate plastic release a potentially dangerous chemical called bisphenol A much faster when boiling water is poured into them, researchers say in a new study.

    Scientists from the University of Cincinnati found that when hard plastic drinking bottles were exposed to boiling water, BPA was released 55 times more rapidly and in higher amounts than when they were filled with room temperature water.

    When the bottles were filled with cool water, the rate of BPA release ranged from 0.2 to 0.8 nanograms per hour. After the bottles were exposed to boiling water, rates increased to 8 to 32 nanograms per hour.

    And they found that the age of the bottles didn't matter: well-used bottles were just as likely to leach the chemical, which has been called a hormone disruptor, as newer ones.

    "Bottles used for up to nine years released the same amount of BPA as new bottles," study author and associate professor Scott Belcher said of his team's experiments.

    The study is published in the journal, Toxicology Letters.

    The finding is important for parents with bottle-fed children, since many plastic baby bottles are made of polycarbonate plastic and parents are advised to repeatedly sterilize the bottles in boiling water for long periods. According to the study, following that advice would make the bottles release BPA faster.

    The finding may also be significant to hikers who may use the bottles from which to drink hot chocolate or other hot beverages.

    Bisphenol A has been the focus of much scrutiny in recent years, with worries that the chemical mimics estrogen. There are fears the chemical can cause earlier onset of puberty in girls, declining sperm counts, and raise the risk of breast and prostate cancer.

    "There is a large body of scientific evidence demonstrating the harmful effects of very small amounts of BPA in laboratory and animal studies, but little clinical evidence related to humans," Belcher said in a statement.

    "There is a very strong suspicion in the scientific community, however, that this chemical has harmful effects on humans."

    Health Canada is currently conducting a "high priority" evaluation of the chemical. The agency notes that while BPA is not bioaccumulative (meaning it doesn't persist in the environment or build up in fat stores), it was recently classified for reproductive toxicity by the European Commission and can cause harm to aquatic organisms.

    Health Canada is expected to publish its conclusions on BPA in May.

    BPA is used in the manufacture of a wide variety of plastic consumer products, including water bottles. It's also used as a component of composite resin dental materials, and in resins that line food and beverage cans.

    Polycarbonate plastic food and beverage containers that contain BPA are labeled #7 inside a triangle-shaped recycling symbol on the bottom of the bottle.

    However, not all containers with the recycling symbol #7 are made with BPA.

    Late last year, Mountain Equipment Co-op became the first retailer in Canada to stop selling some products that contain BPA "until guidance is provided by the Government of Canada on the health risks posed by BPA."
    Vancouver-based Lululemon Athletica later also decided to pull water bottles containing BPA from the shelves of its athletic and yoga wear stores.

    #1418455
    Steve O
    Member

    @hechoendetroit

    Locale: South Kak

    Here's an interesting article from a few months ago with several good references.

    And heres a portion of what they wrote:
    "The levels reported by Calafat et al. indicate the exposure for many people is above the EPA's reference dose of 50 μg/kg/day, according to calculations reported in a comprehensive examination of human exposures published in August 2007. The reference dose is an exposure level calculated by the EPA that is, in theory, low enough to be safe. Many studies have been published in the last 10 years indicating that the current reference dose is dramatically out of date and far too high. Indeed, a careful analysis of the data available on human and animal metabolism of BPA indicates that levels in people today are higher than those sufficient to cause a wide range of adverse effects in animals."

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