GPS no compass?

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Yep, totally agree with what Bobby has said. There is a certain loss of skill amongst outdoorsmen today with regards to navigation skill, and this may have to do with a reliance on things like GPS.

White outs, deep canyons and caves are the only situations I can really think of where I would need a compass to obtain north if I have lost it.

And there are few situations I have ever found where I need to actually follow a compass bearing to get from A to B. These involved night nav in flat featureless terrain to Rogaine checkpoints placed on dodgy features in agricultural land, and also navigating in flat featureless Desert, such as the Nullabor Plain (Aus) to sinkhole caves, on 1:250k maps.

[Roger Caffin]

> why would i be walking in thick fog during a snowstorm?
How about it's day 4 of a long winter trip? Where there is no point in backtracking anyhow? People do go out for longer than one day at times.

> there are so many easy primitive ways of determining direction that they make compasses irrelevant in most normal circumstances.
I do not know where you have been walking, but I can tell you with great confidence that your ideas won't work in the scrub on the east coast of Australia, or in our alpine regions. You would be an SaR case very quickly.

> if you had been using your compass all day and you later realized that a piece of metal close to it swayed all of your readings
If it took someone all of the day to work this out, then more fool that person!
In fact, if someone doesn't know how to use a compass and to keep it clear of other magnetic objects, then that person shouldn't be out in the backcountry unsupervised.

I'm sorry, but I have to say that your idea that you don't need to carry a compass in the backcountry strikes me as highly dangerous. You are welcome to disagree with me of course.

[bobby c]

>>I do not know where you have been walking, but I can tell you with great confidence that your ideas won't work in the scrub on the east coast of Australia, or in our alpine regions. You would be an SaR case very quickly.>>

so, just out of curiosity….do you know how your house is situated? does it face north, south, what? do you know without looking or thinking about it? do you know what direction your office window faces without having to look at a compass/gps?

are you able to determine what direction you are traveling in without a compass or gps or do you have to rely on a device like that to tell you where you are headed? just in everyday life. like riding down the freeway or whatever.

answer the above questions clearly please, roger.

didn't you see where i conceded that certain circumstances dictate using a device and where i said that "general" use could be accomplished without?

you still have not explained clearly how technology trumps knowledge.

and with regards to walking in a snow storm or in the australian outback….sir, you must have never paddled in a kayak during a falling tide in several hundred square miles of marsh grass that blocked all visibility even standing in the kayak. without being able to quickly look at the sun and follow it's pattern, what worth is any so called "outdoorsman"?

are we just a bunch of punks wearing clothing made out of oils pumped up from thousands of feet down eating foods processed on other continents and so distant from our human past that we demand of nature the same that we demand of our corporate bulls*it society?

grow a pair roger and get in tune with your animal side….

[Arapiles .]

Dear Bobby C

How did you move from Roger preferring to use a compass (or GPS) to "all Australians are idiots"?

Respectfully

An Australian

Ummm … moderators … time to step in?

[Ryan Jordan]

This debate now ceases to provide meaningful contribution, a spirit of humility and desire for learning seems to have been lost here.

Take it to chaff.

[bobby c]

i think it's just getting good!

[Adam Kilpatrick]

While I agree with alot of what Bobby originally had to say, I do also think he went a bit too far there.

There are plenty of places and scenarios around the globe that really require a compass, and you would be a bit silly not to at least take one. I pretty much always do unless I forget or am walking entirely on easy to follow trails that I have walked before (like on the weekend), even though most of the scenarios I deal with, I wouldn't consider "orientationally challenging", at least for myself.

Different people have different levels of inherent navigation ability and spatial awareness, that simply cannot be learned. Its kind of like a sense of balance, in a way. There's nothing wrong with that.

Merry Xmas everyone!

Adam

[Anonymous]

I can confess that twice in the last 5 years I have gotten embarassingly off-route in off trail situations where all I had to do was get out the compass I was carrying and take a #@$*%! bearing. One cost us the trip(which we went back later and nailed) and the other was recovered, in altered form, on the fly. Over confidence and its nasty twin, inattentiveness, can get even the spatially aware in trouble in no time at all. In both cases my buddies have continued to good naturedly rag on me to this day and I still feel my cheeks burn at the memories. Most of the time, if you think you know where you're going you're probably OK, but there's always that other possibility and it's so easy to make sure.
Notes to Bobby: 1) As long as you're ready to accept the consequences, mostly good and sometimes not so good, groove on because when you get it right in difficult terrain, your way is about as fun as it gets. 2) Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it. Falls under the general heading of respect.
Note to Australians: I've had the pleasure of meeting quite a few of you down through the years; in my experience you're no bigger idiots than the rest of us and good fun in the bargain.
Cheers,
and Merry Christmas to all

[bobby c]

look, this has gone too far and i've been aggravated enough by everyone's misinterpretations of what i've said.

i said that for average, normal trail hiking and some off trailing that compasses and gps devices were unneccessary. i also conceded that some circumstances dictated using these devices.

NO OFFENSE TO AUSTRALIANS!

no one got what i was trying to say. roger made a reference to hiking in the eastern bush, which made me wonder how the aborigines survived there for so long without a gps. it also made me wonder what was so unique (trail-less areas?) about that spot that it required of visitors a gps/compass or did he mean that all backpackers should use one regardless? and if it is so unique, dangerous, whatever, then wouldn't that fall into the category of circumstance that i conceded dictated using a device? so his reference to the aussie bush is pretty irrelevant.

sorry if i've come off as a little frustrated with anyone on here, it's just that few of the other posters seem to read what i've written before writing their angryish response.

[Roger Caffin]

> roger made a reference to hiking in the eastern bush, which made me wonder how the aborigines survived there for so long without a gps.
The kids learnt the area from their fathers. Same as urban kids learning how to get to school or to the shops from home.

> it also made me wonder what was so unique (trail-less areas?) about that spot that it required of visitors a gps/compass
Much of the Blue Mountains area (especially Wollemi NP) is indeed trail-less, covered in vision-limiting scrub, and plateau-like without clear ridges. A compass and map is always needed; a GPS is sometimes of little use.

I can navigate off the sun (and usually do so if the sun is visible), and off the stars at night as well. But I carry a compass.

> or did he mean that all backpackers should use one regardless?
For the record, it is my opinion that:
Every walker should *carry* a map and compass and know how to use them.
People who cannot use a map and compass are not 'walkers', they are 'followers'.

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