Nov 7, 2007 at 4:11 pm #1225745
The most common fabric used to make lightweight single wall tents is silnylon. This fabric is very light and extremely strong however it stretches in humid or cold weather and it does not breathe. A "fix" is to increase the amount of ventilation, as masterfully done by HS with his Tarptents. That of course makes them "cold" in windy days and or at lower temperatures.
Another material is Epic. This breathes better but is not as wateresistant as silnylon, particularly ( in my experience) when soiled.
Goretex (PTFE/Teflon) is heavy and not that breathable in some conditions.
eVent ( an oleophobic version of PTFE) is (anecdotally) much better but GE limits its use and anyway it is heavy and expensive.
There appears to be a new technology, spotted on the net , that could potentially solve the problem. It seems (to me) that we could have a very light, strong,fully breathable and "waterproof" ( possibly inexpensive) fabric.
Has anyone seen this ?
Does anyone care ?
FrancoNov 7, 2007 at 4:14 pm #1408223
What would the name of this new fabric be?Nov 7, 2007 at 4:19 pm #1408225
@greyhoundLocale: Sierra Nevada
Was there a point where you were going to say what the new technology is, what it's named, or where we can see it?
That might help for those of us who can't read minds.Nov 7, 2007 at 4:29 pm #1408226
That was intentional. There is very little info about this new technology, but no one has suggested using it in tent manufacturing. Sorry if this is annoying, my aim is to find out if anyone else has thought of this particular application.
FrancoNov 7, 2007 at 4:56 pm #1408233
I have no idea what fabric you are talking about. If there was something that was lighter than epic but just as breathable and waterproof, I would expect it to show up in jackets first. Feathered Friends sells some sort of nano-tech material that is water resistant (not waterproof) and very light. Works fine when you get a little condensation or a few drips, but you don't want to get it really wet. It would not work as either a jacket or a tent fabric. Propore laminate (the stuff in O2 style jackets) could, theoretically, be used on the top end of a tent. You certainly wouldn't put it on the ground (it would rip in a second). I don't think anyone has had the guts to make a tent out of it, though (too easy to rip).Nov 7, 2007 at 5:09 pm #1408236
Ben 2 WorldParticipant
@ben2worldLocale: So Cal
If you are thinking about Big Sky's "Znorkel" wp/b fabric — made with unobtanium — we are NOT interested. :)Nov 7, 2007 at 5:15 pm #1408237
What about that Toray Entrant stuff? I think it is about the waterproofness of eVent and weighs slightly more but it seems to be much more durable.Nov 7, 2007 at 5:24 pm #1408239
@bathondLocale: North America
This is an interesting thread nonetheless…though I can typically avoid condensation by tarp camping…MSR Trekker Wing (yes, I know, I should make my own) rules.
Anyways, moving on…
Does anyone know of any WARM hikes that I could take my father, who is a first timer, on this December? I live in Georgia and he lives in Massachusetts, he has never asked to go camping with me before so I want to make it memorable, but I also want it easy enough that he will want to do it again.
A wilderness area would be preferable to some place more popular, touristy.
Any suggestions would be helpful, email me at email@example.com or reply at my post here:Nov 7, 2007 at 5:27 pm #1408241
Ben 2 WorldParticipant
@ben2worldLocale: So Cal
Given this is a first — why not make it extra special — say a trip to Hawaii — with some hikes built in?Nov 7, 2007 at 5:28 pm #1408242
Again, sorry to be vague, but I have my reasons to be so. Incidentally it is not a fabric but a "treatment" of an existing fabric. There are no products on the market , as yet, that use this technology but there will be some in 2008.
What I am hoping for is that someone will come up with " if you are thinking of "**** ****" it will work/not work because…" Otherwise there is a chance that a manufacturer could get a head-start on the rest.
FrancoNov 7, 2007 at 6:19 pm #1408248
@richard295Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Franco – If you are thinking of ion mask™ treatment of a breathable fabric it will provide long term water repellency but not true waterproofness. For true waterproofness, the treated breathable fabric has to provide resistance to water pressure mm/H20 – JIS I 1092 of at least 17,586. I am not aware of any non-waterproof fabric that can be ion mask treated to provide this pressure resistance.Nov 7, 2007 at 7:12 pm #1408254
No offense, but I think people are probably tired of the games. Why not just come out and say what it is and then people can respond? Either you keep your trade secret and don't ask people about it or you spill the beans if you actually want input. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Sorry if this seemed rude, I'm just trying to be frank.Nov 7, 2007 at 7:35 pm #1408259
Not that this is necessiarly the same technology, but read their website including the statement below. They are Venture Capital funded. Those guys typically have pretty solid IP licensing rights, and one would expect that would cover for most any type of textile and their applications.
"P2i has exclusive access to commercialising the ion-mask™ technology and is now commercialising it for the medical, biosciences, electronics, textile and automotive & aerospace markets."
If not, good luck with the venture!
MikeBNov 8, 2007 at 9:02 am #1408342
Very annoying. -1 for you.Nov 8, 2007 at 9:58 am #1408359
@clbowdenLocale: Berkeley Hills
Nano technology? I saw a brief demonstration of water rolling off denim jeans on the History Channel show Modern Marvels. They claimed breathability was not affected by the treatment.Nov 8, 2007 at 10:04 am #1408362
Has anyone experimented with some sort of active ventilation (like an oust fan) to exhaust air through a high-vent?
i would be willing to sacrifice a few ounces if it meant a considerable reduction in condensation.Nov 8, 2007 at 1:57 pm #1408396
The technology I was referring to is indeed the Ion Mask by P2i
as you can see from their comments, they have no plan or incline to use it with tent fabrics. I realize that there is more money in shoes than tents, but I thought that it would be an obvious application. Looks like Mike also made that connection.
FrancoNov 8, 2007 at 5:01 pm #1408421
@row435Locale: Mid Atlantic
Yeah – I'm going to go with "unlikely" on this one. From what I gather they are polymerizing small amounts of hydrophobic material directly onto the the material to be treated. I don't doubt that it can make something extremely water resistant, and may change the way that we think about DWR, but I am guessing that a treatment like this probably will not hold up to any kind of water pressure, at least on a woven material. Leather is a different story since that is not nearly as porous as something like nylon, thus their application to footwear. Granted, I am only postulating given the information that I can find. With my luck the internet will preserve my buffoonery forever, and this stuff will be the best tent material ever.Nov 8, 2007 at 5:51 pm #1408429
Dave, a comparison with Epic was what I thought of at first. P2i talk about fabric and not leather, but you might have a good suggestion there (???).
FrancoNov 8, 2007 at 5:56 pm #1408431
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
> Ion Mask by P2i
Yes, and it has actually been discussed before.
Frankly, I can't see it working on the shoes they are talking about.
Ask them about tent fabric?Nov 8, 2007 at 8:05 pm #1408455
Actually, Richard Nisley wins, he nailed it first, I just looked at it from a business perspective and noticed they had VC involved…. Nice catch Richard.Nov 8, 2007 at 9:14 pm #1408469
Thanks Mike. I did not see Richard's post, occasionally that happens when I surf the various threads.
And thank you Richard for your input. It will be interesting to see what happens with this one.
Maybe Roger can ask them some intelligent questions on our behalf. I have no technical expertise whatsoever to do that.
FrancoNov 10, 2007 at 4:35 am #1408588
Woubeir (from Europe)Participant
I see an opportunity for an article about water repellency, water repellency treatments, durability issues, future developments and if they can deliver what they promise, …
What about repellency based on the properties of the fabric itself (e.g. arc'teryx claimed to have a hyperhydrophobic and thus extremely repellent polyester face fabric for use in some of its gore-tex jackets although they seem to have production problems with it) ?
What can we exspect from nanotreatments, nanofibers, … ?Nov 10, 2007 at 12:30 pm #1408611
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
> I see an opportunity for an article about water repellency, water repellency treatments, durability issues,
Yeah, so do I, but the test equipment to do this properly and objectively will be expensive.
Part of the problem here is that every company keeps its treatment **details** confidential, and only publishes that information which suits itself.
But never fear, we will keep it in mind.
> future developments and if they can deliver what they promise, …
I can answer that one straight away: Nope. :-)
> What can we expect from nanotreatments, nanofibers, … ?
CheersNov 10, 2007 at 4:18 pm #1408616
Richard seems to have a very good handle on this subject. Maybe he could help define some of the less expensive test for BPL for a gift certificate???
Just a thought.
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